Fanuidhol

Cloudy Head

Denver chapter of the Mythopoeic Society

Meeting of January 31, 1999

Attending: Pat, Debra (Rowen), Serian, Aleen, Bruce, Floyd, Cat.

Discussion of Hellspark, by Janet Kagan.

Bruce opened the discussion by asserting the book must have been written by a woman because of all the relationship issues. The focus being the opposite extreme of Robert Heinlein's works.

Floyd agreed, citing the high female presence with status. 50% of Byworld judges are female, viewpoint character is female (the shoulders on whom the author is riding is female).

Aleen countered that we see Swift's and Alfvaen's viewpoint also.

Floyd disagrees, before Tochol's arrival some, but once Tochol arrives no. Floyd cautioned that he just read the book in the last four days, and that Edward Quichal Hall is an all-time-favorite of his.

Someone pointed out that Timosie (the villain) is male. Pat added that a female villain (one of the fishers) is also included.

Pat brought up the sound of Oloitokitok and Timosie and how the sounds might have been motivating factors. Olo- itok -itok actually has both a doubling and the [i] phoneme. Is this an error or was Oloitokitok really that highly honored in Yn culture?

Bruce proclaimed the work Tolkienesque in its emphasis on how things sound to some cultures ( the Eee endings...) He also liked the biology. "Good old science fiction" the piesoelectric concept is something he never dreamed of, but it makes sense (but he doesn't buy the DT's ). Pat pointed out that the explanation might be within layli-layli's culture. Floyd mentioned the crash detox explanation with side effects. Pat reasoned that the need to dream is an Yn explanation. Bruce agreed he could accept that (he is a psychiatrist).

Rowen suggested we move to discuss the concept of proxemics. Pat stated that language is more than words. Words may be the smallest part. Serian agreed that language is 20% verbal and 80% non-verbal. Floyd thought this % seems slightly exaggerated, he would stress the adequacy of the telephone. Discussion ensued. On the telephone, tone, inflection, pauses all are non-verbal but part of the information conveyed. E-mail is almost purely 'verbal' but Cat pointed out that people found the need to invent the symbols ;-), <G> to add expression and help convey the meaning and intent of the writer. With handwriting you can sense agitation, if they press heavily on the paper,

aside. In getting up, Floyd stepped on Deb, who exclaimed "Oh, foot" ;-)

Debra added that even in a mode of communication without voice/body clues we find it pertinent to put in All Caps, punctuation. There are also non-spoken verbal clues. Robyn Leach talks in ALL CAPS.

Pat suggested that the "moron" chamfer was a sabotage attempt by the Inheritors. Aleen countered that she had figured it as just upper management incompetence. Pat added that a behind-the-scenes figure was involved in combining the members of the team and the chamfer to maximize possible errors. (Edge-of-Dark and Buntek, Ohm-im and John the Smith,...)

Aleen wondered about the amount of forethought. 40 surveyors - were there any other moles? After finding Timosie the team never looked any further.

Bruce wondered about a sequel, and suggested this was made for television.

Discussion about how different the combined cultures are. In Gaian terms it is like combining North and South Vietnamese, Georgian (American South), French Canadian, Russian, Iranian...

Aleen mentioned irritation with lack of backstory. She wants a paragraph per culture in the back of the book (appendix). Pat disagreed; preferring to discover bits woven into the story. Aleen countered that she prefers to start out knowing what others know. Not come in from outside existence. How do Hellsparks know so much? What makes other cultures so narrow? Rowen said that she prefers not to have things spoonfed to her. Pat suggested that Hellspark traders originated as part of Scheveshkem culture, sheveschkemen are traders. Veschke is also a deity that Hellsparks subscribe to.

Deb wondered if Hellspark are offshoots of Sheveshke... do you have to be born into Hellspark, or are you trained into it? You don't have a gene but a vocation? If you have tendency you get more training?

Aleen wondered where all the people came from. All have human characteristics; 2 arms, 2 legs; everyone on this team is human. No references to for instance "so and so paused while the denibian slimed its way across the muddy compound, then they crossed and picked the slime residue off their own shoes." She admired the Janis White books about Hospital in Space, which serves creatures of all kinds, shapes like caterpillars, elephantine, and they all get together.

Floyd also stated that he thought it missing references to disparate, divergent cultures or extraordinary diversity. Seems to Floyd that while a primitive Russian and an Aborigine from the outback might not come up with words in common, but they could cooperate to get a fire going. Ideas fundamentally comprehensible not getting a strong sense of verbally different languages. To dance is different. Ohm-im is so dangerous that he has nothing to prove, so he is safe to be around; otherwise there would be lots of dead folks around. He also was looking for references as to whether the members are interfertile. Floyd would also like a 10-volume set of Hellspark.

Hellspark is not a location, it is a language, created in a way to make yourself understood. Hellsparks are those who learned the language first.

Floyd pointed out that it is hard to sell Shakespeare in pidgin. Hellspark is created of known human languages. 15,000 years after the restart of contact between colonists including Earth? It is missing that.

Deb thinks it seems that proxemics and kenisics like fighting talk are easily exaggerated. She gave examples from her time at the foreign student center; when the Middle Eastern lads would back the Brits around the room and even at the social mixers they would end up in clumps with their own ethnicities because that is more comfortable. Serian pointed out that deaf culture is to stand close, and will even follow you if you say you will be right back. Pat recounted an incident in which some Middle Eastern gents put their hands on her belly when she was wearing a high waisted dress; they thought she was pregnant, and were honoring that fertility. Aleen bristled that while this may be ok in their culture it is not in this one. Deb stated that that was the point, the culture you grow up with becomes almost instinctive, and it is easy to err.

Floyd spoke of intensity, bigger than life. He told of Halls grad student experiment (where he paired his grad students into pairs, one who thought in words paired with one who thought in pictures) and during the semester each of the students would come in (separately) to complain that the other just thought strangely.

Cat had to agree that it gets quite frustrating trying to communicate, even in the same verbal language, with someone who thinks differently (she thinks in pictures, Pat in words, so Cat likes her directions "turn on Vine where the big red house on the corner." While Pat gives directions, by the double alphabetical rotation so "Vinca then Vine."

Floyd stated that a team of 40 surveyors, all of whom knew nothing of what was modifying their communication. Kejessli has no clue why he wants his cabin ceiling lower, only the Hellsparks have a clue.

Pat points out that it is in the Hellsparks' best interest to keep the clues to themselves. Deb reminded everyone not to forget the effects of the Ozone. Floyd mentioned that the surveyors seemed uninformed. He would like to see someone other than Ohm-im say he is too stupid to know better. Dealing with different cultures differently.

The reaction to Tochol asking to use the Bluesippan's dagger (as if that is a suicidal request).

What people swear by (feet, blunted) adds to the feeling, it is part of what makes this book Mythopoeic. People tend to swear by what is sacred - for instance Kejessli swearing he will burn with Veschke - or by what is obscene, like feet are for Buntek.

Some discussion of the origin of the British obscenity "bloody." Floyd stated that it was a slurring of "By our Lady". Another opinion was that it came from "Blood of the Lord." Hellspark from Veschke's Sparks, the patron of traders, merchants and thieves.

Pat pointed out that it was over ten years since the book was written, longer since it was conceived. Some things are dated. Tapes for instance, and it dates the book. Memory being a precious commodity. There is mention of an energy crisis on Sheveshke.

Floyd mentioned that in 1930's fiction the problem of how to turn current on and off, perhaps using a giant ceramic knife powered by dynamite, became a mute point by the 1940's. Floyd glosses over inconsistencies like that. Deb mentioned that some things become phrases independent of the object, like Kleenex, Xerox, Elevator...

Pat brought up that Maggie's behavior becomes more emotional and less rational, linear, logical as the book progresses. Thinking & Emotion = Human? Primitive at first. Will Maggie reach an age of reason? Balancing Logic and emotions? Bruce thought she would, but would look for confirmation in the sequel. Deb agreed that when Maggie is more used to it she would be more balanced. Analogies to deal with emotional side at puberty (take this firsthand from a female ;-) Floyd stated that he took Maggie as a person. But he also admits that he rarely questions an author's characters until the author had the character questioned. (Example of Taltos the assassin.) The crux of Maggie's awakening is that irrationality is the logical next step.

Aleen asserted that she saw the change coming very early in the book. The loss and separation feelings. She could not figure out why they ascribed sapience.

How is the Hey Presto considered art? After all she just copied what she had seen someone else do. Floyd stated that Maggie doesn't think of the Hey Presto as essential, it is something to set the mood. The change exists because she says it does, but she ornaments anyway. It may not be essential, but it is more satisfying if she attaches the ornament anyway. Aleen mentioned the Star Trek episode where Data's sapience is under discussion. It took much longer to prove. It was pointed out that the challenger had something to gain by declaring data non-sapient.

The comment about Garbo being to stupid to lie, is not sapient, does this equate that to lie is to be sapient? Floyd stated that computers can not make errors like that, it is not that smart, and had not got the imagination to lie.

Floyd enjoyed the book and would like to see several prequels.

Hellspark built in concept that you gotta watch, just because it is what they said my not be what they meant. Being blinded by assumptions you gotta think about what you get because it may not be what you thought.

More questions about Hellspark being Byworld judges, and whether Hellspark was a place or a vocation.

Pat suggested that Hellspark = Lassti = Flashfever = Hell's Park

Why the alternation in pronunciation if Hellspark if it is a place.

How much of Flashfever's botanical flora is created and how much is wild? Lightning rods are an artifact; they are created and placed in strategic locations (about a storm's space apart.)

Aleen stated that Megeve did believe they have culture, and sapience that they created stuff but does not want the others to believe this. Pat countered that the sprookjes made the lightning rods, so no sprookjes, no rods. Floyd interpreted that wasters take Genesis to be about dominion. Pat agreed, and referred to the theme in "The Undying Land" (her musical from Mythcon '96) - is it Stewardship or Ownership?

The point was made that Cana's disease is based on the biblical reference of turning water into wine.

Alfven reacts only if the ritual response is given, do all Siveans duel?

Aleen wondered if proxemics are different between individuals in the same culture.

Floyd mentioned that the Hellsparks recognize the dance of language and are willing to look for it. Hypothetically an Alien ambassador, even after 10 years on earth, might, if confronted by a human riding a horse, be puzzled whom to address.

Aleen wondered why anyone would want to be a waster? It was pointed out that it is an attractive concept - no rules, waste as you choose, no responsibility. There was speculation about which (current Gaian) races the various cultures were based on.

The next meeting will be Sunday, February 28, 1999 at 2:00 pm. We will be discussing Alan Garner's books "Weirdstone of Brisingamen" and "Moon of Gomrath."

Mythnutes respectfully submitted by Cat.